The Cerberus - Autonomous or Controlled

I know there has been much discussion about the entity that has been lovingly dubbed "Smokey". I'd like to open a debate on one element of the big Smokey question here, as to the nature of the Cerberus as an autonomous being (creature, monster) or a controlled force (mechanical, electromagnetic). I choose this debate, because it follows the larger debate of the show as brought up in "Man of Science; Man of Faith".

It goes without saying that I choose the side of Science.

The opposide side of the agruement, I extend to HolyStickMan as he presented in Smokey - the Karma Policeman.

Here's a few snipits of Stick's arguement, which I invite him to expand on, support further, and defend...

HolyStickMan wrote:We dont know much about the monster except that it kills people and that it can be at least set loose somewhere by Ben.

Essentially the Smoke Monster is the Karma Policeman of the island. And
a very good one at that. Now obviously he has his limits. He probaly
cant leave the island. He has certain rules.

Finally, I believe that the Smoke Monster represents some part of the
island. My guess that the island is split into three parts Jacob is the
physical form of the island, The smoke monster is the will and that the invisible force sometimes called fate is the mind
of the island.

And my counter agruement, from the same thread...

Caged_Faraday wrote:If this is an Island full of insane magnetic
properties, why can't "smokey" be some variety of magnetic field
himself... made visibly by the fine metallic dust trapped in the field.
Smokey has but one power that we've seen, and that is "grab and toss
into mid-air... violently", perfectly viable for a magnetic field,
expecially if its victim is wearing so much as a belt. Heck, it's
conceivable that a powerful enough field would be able to attract blood
iron.

I can't imagine a magnetic field having "intent" of its own... so if it
acted at random, it would be random. If smokie is a magnetic field, any
time it attacked with purpose, it would have to be under someone's
control.

And so, to you HolyStickMan, I open the debate. Prove Yourself.

Once HSM has had time to support his opinion, I open to any outside commentary and opinion.

Sorry CagedF I wasnt supposed to vote yet, that one was from me. You vote for your side once if you want. My Side will follow this in a while. Probabley today.

That's fine. I hope you agree with your own argument. I'd just like you to have the chance to elaborate and defend it before others cast their votes. I also hope I encapsulated your argument accurately.

Ok first off CagedF, I would just like to
thank you for inviting me into this. And secondly before we get started, I’d
like to point out that since you are my favourite theoryist this could turn
into a Luke SkyWalker, Darth Vader sitiuation. If this is the case, you will
eventually give up and join my side before dying. Lol. Ok seriously…





(I don’t want to give Smokey a gender, but
for the sake of the argument I’ll put ‘he’.)


I don’t think that ‘Smokey’ is stupid. I
don’t think that he’s a random killing machine designed for one purpose. But I
also don’t think he’s perfect, a beautifully crafted spirit with no flaws. Take
these two contrasting situation





– Smokey
is going around the island, or whatever he does when he’s not killing. He comes
across a strange man he’s never seen before. This is Eko. Smokey scans him and
then goes off about his buisness again. After a day or so Smokey has proccesed
this information and decided that Eko could easily become ‘a bad person’ again.
He gives Eko one last chance. (Yemi) Then he makes the intelligent decesion to
terminate him.





Ok so that was intelligent smokey, now the
same entity again in a different situation.





- Smokey is roaming around his beloved
island. He has gotten used to the irritating fences and occasional humans
around, but so far his ‘life’ is great. Then out of nowhere a giant plane
crashes on the island. Disturbing, no destroying the peacefulness of the
island. Now there are 42 more new potentially DHARMAOUS people. (What I mean by
Dharmaous is like Dharma people, disturbing nature on the island) So Smokey is
pretty pissed. But he is still intelligent enough to look for the source of
this. The pilot. Smokey’s angry Seth Norris crashed the plane. The rest is
history. Ok this show Smokey not so intelligent side.





These two situations remind me of a certain
quote. It was something like this – John,
My good decisions are often balenced out by some emotional ones. I hope you do
a better job. This was a quote from Ben that exactly describes the
characteristics of Smokey. So what I’m saying is that Smokey is like a human.
He isn’t a random killer or a perfect calculated machine. He’s like a human he
makes good decisions and bad emotionally guided ones. I like these two options.





1)
Smokey is the spirit of the
island, he embodies the spirit of the island. Just like I think Jacob reflects
some characteristic of the island.


OR





2)
Smokey is the spirit of all
those who have died on the island. By some Dharma experiment they have been
made visible and combined (which would explain the human characteristics.)





I personally prefer 1, but that just an
opinion.





I will post more tommorrow (England). But I’ll
wait for a response at the moment. I have plenty more to come.




TheHolyStickman

Sorry, CagedF I dont think I explained the point of my post. It was that Smokey makes his own decisions and is not controlled by people because of the two situations I had up there.

TheHolyStickMan wrote:I don’t want to give Smokey a gender, but
for the sake of the argument I’ll put ‘he’.

Then don't. No more than you'd have to give a gun or a tractor a gender.

OK, that slight jab aside, The Cerberus is a device. No more. No less. It's "actions" are simply controlled... most of the time, I believe, by one Benjamin "Bugeyes" Linus.

What is the Cerberus? I believe it's simply a harnessed electromagnetic field. It's a complicated version of a magnet. It's no demon, or construct of the combined energy of the dead... it's metallic dust suspended in a field. It's powerful, but it's not evil. It's nothing without someone to flip it's switch.

TheHolyStickMan wrote:Smokey is going around the island, or whatever he does when he’s not killing. He comes across a strange man he’s never seen before. This is Eko. Smokey scans him and then goes off about his buisness again. After a day or so Smokey has proccesed this information and decided that Eko could easily become ‘a bad person’ again. He gives Eko one last chance. (Yemi) Then he makes the intelligent decesion to terminate him.

Smokey is sent out. Eko is not his target.

The Cerberus has had very specific targets, all with specific value to Ben Linus.

The first is the Pilot. Any information or technology the pilot had needed to be eliminated. The pilot appears to be about to reveal something important when he's ripped from the cockpit.

The second target is Jack, Kate, and Charlie when they're on the way back with the radio.

The third is Locke... and he's not tossed into mid-air or thrashed violently, but an attempt is made to drag him into a tunnel.

Later, Juliet and Kate when they're ecsaping the barracks handcuffed together.

And of course, Ben very obviously sets the Cerberus on Keamy. This time, it's become quite evident that it is a tool commanded by Ben.

There are many more appearances of the Cerberus, and I don't want to fill up this post listing them all. But one can see the the "intent" of the Cerberus is not its own, but that of Ben Linus.

First off, I didnt do that deliberately, I saw that I had put he for the whole thing, and instead of changing it I just left a note at the top.

So if Cerebus is controlled, could you please tell me why he hasnt scanned everyone on the island. If Ben wanted info on all the losties that couldnt be accessed in there files. Secrets and such. Then he would scan everyone and gather all that infomation.

Smokey appears to be interested in certain people on the island. He could feel Lock and Eko's spiritual awareness and decided to scan them because he wanted to see if they were to be brought to Jacob. Locke was supposed to be. And clearly Eko was so bad he deserved to die.

I remember the monster scanning Kate and Juiliet. Why would Ben possibely order Smokey to scan them. He has been living in the same place as her for three years.

I like your ideas of Smokey being sent to find certain people and that Eko was just a distraction. But Why. Why would he want all those people.

Keamy, why did Smokey go to pay a little visit to Keamy. Well, a numer of reasons popped into my head but I think this was my favourite. In the room that Ben went into, in the shape of things to come, there are symbols on the wall. I think that Ben could have released a large amount of some form of energy that would attract cerebus. I don't have the slightest clue as to what the energy could have been, but thats not so important. So Smokey gets there and is immediatly drawn to Keamy and his men. He can tell that they're bad people. So he attacks them. What Ben did there is not control. It is manipulation. I dont deny that Ben hasnt manipualted the monster before but its not control.

Finally my last point is that f Smokey is an electro magnetic field, then how can it scan people. We clearly saw that Eko's past was being read. So how could an electromagnet do that.

Go on prove me wrong, dazzle me with your sparkling science.

I remember the moment Eko got scanned. That, it seemed to me, was the Black Smoke acting according to its own sense of judgement. I don't know if that indicates the Black Smoke has consciousness, but it has rationale.

Similarly, the moment where it 'flash photographed' Juliet and Kate, is another instance where the Black Smoke is acting on its own functional basis. . .

If there was an option up top that stated Smokey was man-made, but has since become a law unto itself on the Island that - as Ben did - could be partially reined in and controlled on occasion, that's the option I'd go for.

TheHolyStickman wrote:So if Cerebus is controlled, could you please tell me why he hasnt scanned everyone on the island. If Ben wanted info on all the losties that couldnt be accessed in there files. Secrets and such. Then he would scan everyone and gather all that infomation.

Well, because I don't believe the Cerberus is a "tricorder". It's an electromagnetic device. It can no more assertain information about it's victim than a refridgerator could.

TheHolyStickman wrote:Smokey appears to be interested in certain people on the island. He could feel Lock and Eko's spiritual awareness and decided to scan them because he wanted to see if they were to be brought to Jacob. Locke was supposed to be. And clearly Eko was so bad he deserved to die.

I don't believe this interest had anything to do with the Cerberus, but with it's contoller... likely Ben (possibly Alpert from time to time).

TheHolyStickman wrote:I remember the monster scanning Kate and Juiliet. Why would Ben possibely order Smokey to scan them. He has been living in the same place as her for three years.

Again, this goes along with your thought that the Cerberus has some sort of "scanning ability". I saw that meerly as the aquisition of a target.

TheHolyStickman wrote:I like your ideas of Smokey being sent to find certain people and that Eko was just a distraction. But Why. Why would he want all those people.

The Pilot: Dangerous.
Kate, Jack and Charlie with the radio: nearly as dangerous as the pilot.
Locke: Not dangerous, but at that point sought, thus the Cerberus does not attempt to kill him, just dra him off to its master.
Keamy and his men: If you don't know why Ben would attack them... well, you're probably watching Battlestar Gallactica instead of LOST.

TheHolyStickman wrote:Keamy, why did Smokey go to pay a little visit to Keamy. Well, a numer of reasons popped into my head but I think this was my favourite. In the room that Ben went into, in the shape of things to come, there are symbols on the wall. I think that Ben could have released a large amount of some form of energy that would attract cerebus. I don't have the slightest clue as to what the energy could have been, but thats not so important. So Smokey gets there and is immediatly drawn to Keamy and his men. He can tell that they're bad people. So he attacks them. What Ben did there is not control. It is manipulation. I dont deny that Ben hasnt manipualted the monster before but its not control.

Ben's releasing of the Cerberus seems a little simpler than that. He needs to get away; flipping the switch that sends out his ravaging tornado of doom seems like a good idea. He simply activates a device, he doesn't hide a dog biscuit in Keamy's shorts for his monster to chase after.

TheHolyStickman wrote:Finally my last point is that f Smokey is an electro magnetic field, then how can it scan people. We clearly saw that Eko's past was being read. So how could an electromagnet do that.

I've seen no evidence that the Cerberus "scans" people. I have seen it acquire and follow a target. As to the nature of it's targeting system, I'd venture to say it has to do with the electromagnet signature every human being has. It could sence such a signature and then move in to assertain that it's the exact signature it's targeted to. But I don't see any evidence that it "scans" anything. What is it you believe it acquires when it "scans" people? Name, rank and serial number? Blood type and Religion? Physical description; height, weight, and eye colour? I don't see it.

TheHolyStickman wrote:Go on prove me wrong, dazzle me with your sparkling science.

Honestly, I can't say my science is so sparkling on this one. If the Cerberus is a controlled electromagnetic field... I couldn't tell you the mechanism of it's control. Maybe an electronic map and a joystick? Maybe it's simply activated, and reacts to heartrate. I just can't see it as a mythical beast with a consciousness, an conscience, and intent.

Just a short one. Then how can you explain the flashing images of Eko's life as you pan behind the monster. What was Cerebus doing then?

You're going to have to give me 12 hours on that one, so I can re-watch the episode.

Caged_Faraday wrote:Heck, it's
conceivable that a powerful enough field would be able to attract blood
iron.

Sorry, I think I missed this when I went over your original debate. Attracting the iron in someones blood. And you were starting to sway me. If the iron in your blood was attracted by smokey then the magnet would be so powerful that it would bring someone from the other side of the island if they were wearing so much as an earing. Also it would kill you if you extracted iron from someones blood. You need the iron, you would die instantley. Finally, how would that even work? Would the iron just go to one side of your body? That would definatley kill you. And also MrFaraday I'm still waiting your responce. I might put another argument in at this rate!

Ok CagedF if you dont think that Cerebus is a 'Karma Police' system.
Then what is it? An assassination machine? I guess this what youre
thinking. But if it is, then its not very good at its job is it? It
injured one mercenary and didnt harm the others. You could argue that
Ben just wanted the Freiter folks to be moved away or distracted. But
one of them just killed his daughter, if he had some way of controlling
it wouldnt Ben set it to mega kill mode instead of give them a nudge to the other side of the island mode. No. I think that the smoke monster is powerful. But it will only interfere when absolutely neccessary.

I am confused as to how Ben would control this thing, when he cleary
doesnt have a remote in his hand in the shape of things to come. So
unless you can come up with some other explanation, I gonna have to say
that smokey must be able to think at least a little by itself.

If Cerebus was controlled by Ben as you put it. (Which every bone in my body goes against) Why, Why, Why go chase Juliet and Kate. Just hours ago Ben had gone over the plan. Infiltrate the camp and help Claire. So maybe Ben convieniently forgot to tell Juliet the part where he jeprodises the whole mission by sending out a cloud of lethal black smoke. Hmmm? My best guess is that Smokey polices the island and when he is out and about (For what reason I dont know) he scans the people he doesnt recognise and sees if they deserve to live on the island. And I just cant see Smokey being man made.

TheHolyStickman

P.S. If you dont reply I claim Victory because of forfit.

[quote="TheHolyStickman]Sorry, I think I missed this when I went over your original debate. [i]Attracting the iron in someones blood. [/i]And you were starting to sway me.[/quote]
Slow down young padawan. I don't need any Al Gore concession retraction phone calls. Florida hasn't been counted yet. (OK, maybe 2000 US election humor is a bit of a stretch for you. Sorry.)

[quote="TheHolyStickman]If the iron in your blood was attracted by smokey then the magnet would be so powerful that it would bring someone from the other side of the island if they were wearing so much as an earing.[/quote]
That would be true of a magnet, which projects a magnetic field in all directions. But a controlled field would have boundaries, and only effect things within it's boundary.

[quote="TheHolyStickman]Also it would kill you if you extracted iron from someones blood. You need the iron, you would die instantley.[/quote]
Is anyone arguing that an encounter with the Cerberus is fatal? Only one person didn't seem to die instantaneously, and that was Keamy's man. I believe some one even said "I don't even know how to treat him", or a similar line.

[quote="TheHolyStickman]Finally, how would that even work? Would the iron just go to one side of your body? That would definatley kill you.[quote]
It wouldn't quite be as fast as you think. It would casue eventual suffocation as your red blood cells could no longer carry oxygen. Possible heart attack as your heart would sufocate quickly. Yes, by all accounts, eventually, and reasonably quickly, fatal.

But, we're arguing a point that began "it's conceivable that..." I wasn't basing my argument that blood-iron attack was the basis of the Cerberus' power, simply that as a magnetic field, that is a possibility of the scope of it's power. Just as conceivable that it could simply shut off your brain, stop your heart, or effect anything else in your body that runs on electrical impulse.
[quote="TheHolyStickman]And also MrFaraday I'm still waiting your responce.[/quote]
Mr. Faraday... I like it.

I will have to base this responce without opportunity to review the footage in question, but I will say this from my recollection of the episode in question: At no time did I feel that Eko's "flashback" was a direct effect of the Cerberus. It's difficult to define the intention of the producers in any trick they pull. What's a dream, and what's a hallicination, and what's an actual dead person simply appearing in the scene? My interpretation is simply the representation of Eko's life flashing before his eyes in the face of the Cerberus. The fact that Eko believed he was goingto die, and therefore had an "experience" does not in anyway define the Cerberus itself as a being, no more than it does as a device. That scene only expresses that Eko thought he was going to die, and that in the end, the Cerberus did not pursue him.

[quote="TheHolyStickman]I might put another argument in at this rate![/quote]
By all means, do. I'm not a stickler for the arguement-counter-cross format. The countdown is running on the poll. Get everything you want out there. If you flood the thread, and convince the masses because you have more time to do so, or more things to say, by all means. Fair play to the Stick.

TheHolyStickman wrote:Ok CagedF if you dont think that Cerebus is a 'Karma Police' system.
Then what is it? An assassination machine? I guess this what youre
thinking.

Approximately.

TheHolyStickman wrote:But if it is, then its not very good at its job is it? It
injured one mercenary and didnt harm the others. You could argue that
Ben just wanted the Freiter folks to be moved away or distracted. But
one of them just killed his daughter, if he had some way of controlling
it wouldnt Ben set it to mega kill mode instead of give them a nudge to the other side of the island mode. No. I think that the smoke monster is powerful. But it will only interfere when absolutely neccessary.

My personal interpretation: without being at the "helm" of the Cerberus, he simply had to leave it on "autopilot"... he couldn't control it personally, with any attention, and therefore it's actions were not as deliberate.

TheHolyStickman wrote:I am confused as to how Ben would control this thing, when he cleary
doesnt have a remote in his hand in the shape of things to come. So unless you can come up with some other explanation, I gonna have to say that smokey must be able to think at least a little by itself.

I can't say for certain, as I said, in that I'm not certain how one would control a targeted magnetic field, but I would imagine some sort of console. Maybe with a map or "radar screen" type display. When targetting a specific person, one would have to man the console. To just send it in a specific direction with a duration (as it seemed was it's action against Keamy (and why it didn't actually get Keamy himself), one could simply set it and walk away.

That brings question to you. If it is an intelligent creature with specific knowledge of the anti-Island intent of its victims, why oh why didn't it get Keamy... or even manage to hurt Keamy... and instead mangle a couple of his flunkies? Your "intelligent karma-driven creature" really dropped the ball that time.

TheHolyStickman wrote:If Cerebus was controlled by Ben as you put it. (Which every bone in my body goes against) Why, Why, Why go chase Juliet and Kate. Just hours ago Ben had gone over the plan. Infiltrate the camp and help Claire. So maybe Ben convieniently forgot to tell Juliet the part where he jeprodises the whole mission by sending out a cloud of lethal black smoke. Hmmm?

To boost the story of the lie. A controlled Cerberus can chase and not kill Juliet and Kate, thus padding Ben's lie, and making Juliet that much more convincing.

TheHolyStickman wrote:My best guess is that Smokey polices the island and when he is out and about (For what reason I dont know) he scans the people he doesnt recognise and sees if they deserve to live on the island. And I just cant see Smokey being man made.

And I just can't fathom an all-powerful demon with some-sort of soul-scanning ability wandering the Island, deciding who's righteous, killing the wicked, and leaving Keamy behind untouched... but somhow also listening to Ben's commands. It just seems to contradict itself.

TheHolyStickman wrote:TheHolyStickman

P.S. If you dont reply I claim Victory because of forfit.

I just did reply. Also, the clock has been running since I posted this. It will expire and self total when it does (14 days after I posted, I believe). No concession. No forfeit. When the time runs out, one of us has more votes or we don't.

Caged_Faraday wrote:
And I just can't fathom an all-powerful demon with some-sort of soul-scanning ability wandering the Island

He's not a demon, thats just being mean.

TheHolyStickman wrote:

Caged_Faraday wrote:
And I just can't fathom an all-powerful demon with some-sort of soul-scanning ability wandering the Island

He's not a demon, thats just being mean.

I meant not to insult Cerberus. My appologies. OK, I just can't fathom an all-powerful creature with some-sort of soul-scanning ability wandering the Island...

Much better

I wonder how you detirmine how many days are left in a poll.

Caged_Faraday wrote:
My personal interpretation: without being at the "helm" of the Cerberus, he simply had to leave it on "autopilot"... he couldn't control it personally, with any attention, and therefore it's actions were not as deliberate.

But if as you say, the monster was on auto-pilot. Then surley it must have at least some intelligence. If was completely manually operated then it wouldn't be able to move without control.

Caged_Faraday wrote:

That brings question to you. If it is an intelligent creature with specific knowledge of the anti-Island intent of its victims, why oh why didn't it get Keamy... or even manage to hurt Keamy... and instead mangle a couple of his flunkies? Your "intelligent karma-driven creature" really dropped the ball that time.

I never said it had any knowledge of the anti island crew. I said that I thought it could tell who was good or bad to some degree before scannig them fully. For all you know the one who was attacked was the worst one. But, as I said earlier, I dont think the smoke monster is designed to fight, I think it is a police system. And if it is all powerful I think it wouldnt interfere with human warfare unless it was absolutley neccessary.

Caged_Faraday wrote:To boost the story of the lie. A controlled Cerberus can chase and not kill Juliet and Kate, thus padding Ben's lie, and making Juliet that much more convincing.

But still this is a big risk. And a man such as Ben who "Always has a plan" wouldnt risk this when so many things could go wrong. If smokey was a magnetic field it could accidentaly injure Kate or Juliet. Kate could blame Juliet for it. It could be released at the wrong time and attract the losties. And we know it forced Juliet to undo the handcuffs. Also in the last scene of this episode Ben goes through the whole plan.

JULIET: I know what to do.
BEN: Let's go over it again, just to be sure.
JULIET: I drag Austen out into the jungle, handcuff myself to her, then tell her I was gassed just like she was.
BEN: And if she catches you in the lie?
JULIET: I'll admit to it. Tell her it was the only way to earn her trust.
BEN: Good. What then?
JULIET: They'll take me back to the beach.
[Scenes and audio now overlap with Juliet tying her tarp. She [color:3dee=#00CC33 ! important][color:3dee=#00CC33 ! important]watches all the survivors as they go about their daily lives]
JULIET: I know you want me to go there, but after everything we've done to them, its going to be a problem.
BEN: We've activated the implant in Claire, she should be
symptomatic in the next 48 hours. By the time you get to that camp,
you'll have a nice big crisis to solve.
JULIET: I'll need supplies.
BEN: Pryce is already on his way. He'll hide the case at Ethan's
old drop-point. Tell Jack, that you can save her. He trusts you. Are
you alright?
JULIET: [Pause] I'm fine.
BEN: [Hands Juliet a gas mask] See you in a week.
[Juliet pauses, then takes the mask. At the beach, Juliet ties part of the tarp sharply, with a cold look on her face]

Your saying he forget to mention that Cerebus will be chasing them. Not likely.


You also said that Cerebus killed some of the bad guys but left Keamy. A number of things could be used to explain this. And if Keamy had been killed then there be no threat in the finale. Keamy was left alive for dramitic purposes and the writers will wriggle there way out of it.

Finally, whilst Jack was with the others for the majority of season three, Ben said something like this.

I couldnt kill you Jack because that would be against my word and then my people would get rid of me. And I couldnt let you go because then my people really would want to get rid of me.

He then goes on to explain how Locke blowing up the sub was his ticket to freedom. But clearly Ben wanted Jack dead or he would lose his position as leader of the others. So why not just send Jack out beyond the fence with a couple of others and then kill him using the trusty Cerebus. Maybe he could injure a few others to make it seem more realistic. Then his problem would be solved and he wouldnt have to rely on luck. That is if he had control of the smoke monster.

TheHolyStickman

When the series ends we are going to find out that Smokey is the ghost of Jacob's dog, or some sort of futuristic version of Vincent.

TheHolyStickman wrote:But if as you say, the monster was on auto-pilot. Then surley it must have at least some intelligence. If was completely manually operated then it wouldn't be able to move without control.

An airplane has an autopilot, are you going to argue it to be sentient, too? Many things can be given "automomy" without having intelligence.

TheHolyStickman wrote:I never said it had any knowledge of the anti island crew. I said that I thought it could tell who was good or bad to some degree before scannig them fully. For all you know the one who was attacked was the worst one. But, as I said earlier, I dont think the smoke monster is designed to fight, I think it is a police system. And if it is all powerful I think it wouldnt interfere with human warfare unless it was absolutley neccessary.

So you argue it was less sucessful against Keamy and company because of the "rules" it must obey?

TheHolyStickman wrote:But still this is a big risk. And a man such as Ben who "Always has a plan" wouldnt risk this when so many things could go wrong. If smokey was a magnetic field it could accidentaly injure Kate or Juliet. Kate could blame Juliet for it. It could be released at the wrong time and attract the losties. And we know it forced Juliet to undo the handcuffs. Also in the last scene of this episode Ben goes through the whole plan.

Your saying he forget to mention that Cerebus will be chasing them. Not likely.

Not forgot. Chose not to. Makes Juliet (who's generally a bad actor) far more believable.

TheHolyStickman wrote:You also said that Cerebus killed some of the bad guys but left Keamy. A number of things could be used to explain this. And if Keamy had been killed then there be no threat in the finale.

Keamy was left alive for dramitic purposes and the writers will wriggle there way out of it.

So you're justifying the nature of the creature on an element of story writing?

TheHolyStickman wrote:Finally, whilst Jack was with the others for the majority of season three, Ben said something like this.

I couldnt kill you Jack because that would be against my word and then my people would get rid of me. And I couldnt let you go because then my people really would want to get rid of me.

He then goes on to explain how Locke blowing up the sub was his ticket to freedom. But clearly Ben wanted Jack dead or he would lose his position as leader of the others. So why not just send Jack out beyond the fence with a couple of others and then kill him using the trusty Cerebus. Maybe he could injure a few others to make it seem more realistic. Then his problem would be solved and he wouldnt have to rely on luck. That is if he had control of the smoke monster.

Assuming he has control of the Cerberus (wait, that's already established)... based on the idea that Ben has control of the Cerberus, he couldn't send it after Jack, because in the eyes of the Others, that would be no different than if he killed Jack himself. In New Otherton, everyone knows Ben has the Cerberus control box in his basement... just like we do.

Assuming he has control of the Cerberus (wait, that's already established)... based on the idea that Ben has control of the Cerberus, he couldn't send it after Jack, because in the eyes of the Others, that would be no different than if he killed Jack himself. In New Otherton, everyone knows Ben has the Cerberus control box in his basement... just like we do.

Juliet didnt know, did she. So I'm guessing as she's pretty senior that the others dont.

I voted both because when Ben did control it, it just blew some dust up around Keamy's men and gave them a few bruises. Every other time Smokie comes in contact with someone, it gets pretty violent.
And the three smaller ones that come togther to form the bigger one(one that killed Eko) seem to have an intelegence all their own. Maybe even that of Judge, Jury, and Executioner. It does seem to leave alone Alperts crew, the "good" ones.
And if Dharma could have controled it, why the sonic fence to contain it?

TheHolyStickman wrote:Juliet didnt know, did she. So I'm guessing as she's pretty senior that the others dont.

Juliet?!? She's been lied to more times than Jack. I don't really see her as a respected and in-the-know member of the others. If anyone knows about Ben's use of the Cerberus, it would be Richard, Tom, Isabelle (R.I.P.), Ethan (R.I.P.), etc.