POLL ADDED FOR DEBATE! Lojozz V Hope - Is Ben a good guy

I voted For Lojozz on this one.

Listen, a debate is about logic, why do we disregard reality because we like a character?
If Ben's character wasn't so well done and Michael Emmerson wasn't such a superb actor the vote would be 100% against Ben being a good guy.

Ben is a remorselss murderer...how anyone can consider him to be a good guy simply boggles my mind.

Well, this just shows how nice everyone else is and how evil we and MSHL are. Everyone else is willing to see the small portion of good in Ben, than the 90% of bad. I think the reason youre voting for Ben being a good person is because of Alex's death and Bens emotional struggle. But if you compare him to everyone else in the world. You'll see hes worse than a lot of them.

Good arguments on both sides. I'm going with Lojozz. Ben is a great character (one of my favorites) but will do anything and everything to get his way. I don't think a good guy would do anything to win.

Yes, HSM. We are evil...muhahahahahahaha!

I think the next debate topic should be "Is it okay to murder someone to get a date with a girl"

Let's look at Ben's list of character highlights
Murderer (Goodwin, Henry Gale, his father)
liar (to everybody)
brain washer (Carl)
kidnapper (children, Alex, Micheal, Wallllllllllt, Kate, Sawyer Jack Hurley, most of the tailies)
torturer (Henry Gale)
Mental abuse and extreme manipulation(Sawyer, Kate, Jack, Micheal)
Terrorizer (Every Lostie on the island)
Mass murderer (the folks on the Freighter, all Dharma personnel)

Yup, fits every definition of good guy that i've ever heard.

Now if you'll excuse me I have to go tie a widow to some railroad tracks.

MyStarbuckHatesLost wrote:Yes, HSM. We are evil...muhahahahahahaha!

I think the next debate topic should be "Is it okay to murder someone to get a date with a girl"

Let's look at Ben's list of character highlights
Murderer (Goodwin, Henry Gale, his father)
liar (to everybody)
brain washer (Carl)
kidnapper (children, Alex, Micheal, Wallllllllllt, Kate, Sawyer Jack Hurley, most of the tailies)
torturer (Henry Gale)
Mental abuse and extreme manipulation(Sawyer, Kate, Jack, Micheal)
Terrorizer (Every Lostie on the island)
Mass murderer (the folks on the Freighter, all Dharma personnel)

Yup, fits every definition of good guy that i've ever heard.

Now if you'll excuse me I have to go tie a widow to some railroad tracks.

Haha. Once agian you prove to be hilarious.

Wow, the debate is over I thought. I hope this doesn't come across as mean or whatever but isn't LJ's job to argue for the 'not good' side? Don't get me wrong, this was fun for me. And I am suprised by the numbers myself. I knew going into this that everyone already has their opinions of Ben's character and swaying those opinions would be difficult.

But I feel as though I need to defend my side yet again, and I still think that Ben has good intentions as far as the Island is concerned. He has had to do some tough things. And we didn't see him kill the DI, we saw him kill his father and then walk into the barracks and close Goodspeeds eyes after everyone is dead.

What do you think the Iraqi's think of us. We go blow up their country and force our government on them, but are we bad? No, we support all of our troops (i even send care packages). This is just a comparison. Bush had to make some tough decisions and we backed him because we believe that he knows what he is doing, we believe that he is good (even though I not a bush supporter). The same goes Ben IMO.

Anyways, debate is over. I had fun. I can't wait to use my new avatar...HEHEHEHE...nothing but love LJ

You havent won yet Hope, maybe ten new people will sign up quickly and all vote for Lojozz... not that Im Planning anything.

Good points again Hope (my fellow buckeye)

But remeber this about your Bush comparison. Most people supported him. But after we found out that there wer no WMD's, that there was no connection between Iraq and El Quida and that the whole war was based on exaggerations, half-truths and all out lies, didn't that change your opinion of Bush? Didn't that change most people's opinion of Bush?

Iraq's people don't think much of us just like the losties (even if they work with him) don't think much of ben either.

Don'tcha love debates?

yeah i agree about bush, i was just trying some last tactics. and the avatar thing is wishful thinking

I see Ben as someone who has had a huge responsibilty placed on him. They thought he was "the one" and im betting deep down he knew he wasnt, but he craved that love and attention that he had never recieved as a child. So he played along, all the while knowing that one day he would be discovered as the wrong choice. A lot of his manipulation and lies have been for some greater purpose, but mixed in with that is also his desire for accpetance, for validation as a leader.

The only people he has actually killed are his father and Keamy. He had probably been prepped for the murder of his father by the hostiles, persuaded that it is the only way to protect the island and protect some greater knowledge and purpose. Keamy killed his daughter, and it was obvious to me he believed 100% that Keamy wouldnt actually pull the trigger. He may be responsible for her death but it certainly wasnt intended. Goodwin...well he didnt put a gun to Anna Lucias head and tell her to kill him so I think that his later conversation with Juliette was in hindsight, a slack and sloppy last attempt at controlling the woman who he loves. I'm not saying what he said to her was right, i'm not saying wanting to control her was right, but he didnt kill Goodwin.

Us normal folk have our hearts and minds set at the same wavelength to others, we value the lives of others as we do our own, we all seem to have a coomon goal to get on in life and be happy, helping and respecting eachother (for the most part anyway) but Bens heart and mind is set at a much higher goal to protect that amazing island from those who would exploit it....perhaps even saving the world. Thats gotta take some tactics that we would never morally agree with in everyday life. I think when you look at the bigger picture and think outside the box, he is one of the good guys.

Thats what I wanted to explain for my reasons for voting for Hope, but I was at work and only had 2 minutes spare

Thanks SBP.

I would point out that he also killed the two dudes in the desert, but the debate is over so I won't.

I hope that Ben is proved to be a good guy and before I started this its actually kind of what I thought. I now honestly believe there is no way he can be, but perhaps that is just because I had to go so deep into that mentality to argue that side of the debate.

Perhaps after 2 weeks in the sun I will think differently.

Well its all over 12-8 to Hope, I guess Ben is a 'Good Guy' after all.

Well done Hope and congratulations on your victory and new crown. Wear it well, its sometimes get a bit heavy.

I will PM the avatar to you. It may need a bit of a clean, I was eating crisps out of it last night!

Thanks to everybody for taking part it was IMO a fun debate.

Lojozz, when handing over the crown to Hope I think a more apt sentiment would have been: "Good luck, Hope. I'm sorry I made your debate so miserable."

Fantastic debate, very well fought and some brilliant arguments for both sides

Congratulations Hope!

Well done Hope

I hope that you wear your avatar with pride and well done AC, Laterus and everyone else ... oops sorry forgot .... well done to Lojozz too!! (lol)



Stitch

Congratulations to Hope
for winning this debate,and to Lojozz for a good run.
To be perfectly honest, I could not in good conscience vote for either of you.
I was going to get this posted before the voting ended, but I was unable to do so.

I was gone for the day, so I wasn't able to before the deadline.
My one vote ,as I see would not even have mattered anyway.
I could not agree with Ben being good or bad. It was just because of this:



Ben as the character he portrays is both bad and good,I cannot put him in either category.
The whole subject was just to much of a paradox for me.

Congrats Hope

Thank you everyone!!!

Congrats Hope. Way to go you Buckeye.

Good debate...

But I still think Ben is not a good guy